Sarah Tavel (00:00:00): I think a lot of people think about markets almost like these bodies of water, it's like it's this big body of water that we're going after. I actually think that the most interesting markets, you have to think of them like currents where you're there's something happening in the market that's creating this current where you can have a plank of wood that you've put on the river and it's going to pull you forward. Versus a market that doesn't really have that momentum to it, you're going to have to build something really big and fancy to make any progress. That's why we care less about market size because really, what you're looking for when you're looking at a market, are what are the dynamics of change, what's the current and momentum that's going to pull the company and make the job easier for the founders to actually build something that endures. Lenny (00:00:56): Today, my guest is Sarah Tavel. Sarah is a partner at Benchmark, one of the most preeminent venture capital funds in the world, where she focuses on investing in consumer and marketplace startups. Prior to Benchmark, Sarah was the first product manager at Pinterest. And though I normally have a policy against VCs on the podcast, as you'll see, Sarah thinks very much like a product and growth leader. And I always learn a ton talking to Sarah about startups and marketplaces. We also learn in our conversation, she used to play rugby and was apparently one of the best tacklers in her league. (00:01:28): In our conversation, we unpack two of Sarah's killer frameworks for building a startup. One, the hierarchy of engagement, which is an incredibly useful lens for trying to figure out how to grow and scale your consumer startup. And then, the hierarchy of marketplaces, which is an incredibly useful guide for helping you build your marketplace startup. If you're building a consumer startup or a marketplace, this episode is for you. We get really nerdy and really deep, just the way I ...