Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:00): You basically spend all your time working with founders, and through that studying, you create frameworks and training and you use that in your work. I think that's what many, many founders are looking for is how do I avoid pain? Jonathan Lowenhar (00:00:11): To be a founder is a state of being, it's an attitude. To be a CEO is a craft. The more founders who can accept that those are two separate things and they're both equally important to build an ascendant startup, the better all of us will be. Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:26): I'm kind of tired of talking about founder mode, but it feels like what you're describing is founder mode and manager mode. Jonathan Lowenhar (00:00:30): Founder mode gets me angry. That article just got me hot. It really felt like an excuse. We were giving founders a permission to not learn the job. It's not manager mode is bad, it's the greatest CEOs know when to calibrate which one is needed. Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:46): Something you talk about, there's these two phases to a startup journey and most people focus on the first phase. Jonathan Lowenhar (00:00:51): Phase one is build something people want to buy. Phase two, the one we don't talk about is now you have to build a company around that thing people want to buy. Building a company is always the same. I don't care if it's MedTech or fintech or hardware or consumer. Lenny Rachitsky (00:01:04): You've come up with this methodology that you call the Magic Box paradigm that helps founders think about how to lead to a successful exit long-term. Jonathan Lowenhar (00:01:11): This is a traditional sales process. You build a list of the companies that might want to acquire you, you ping them and you hope you get a deal. Magic Box argues that the best outcomes for early-stage startups don't happen that way. You're never for sale. In fact, you have seduced a buyer. They see the fantasy, they fall in love. Lenny Rachitsky (00:01:35): Today, my guest is Jonathan ...