Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:00): The way you described the early years of Notion, you described the first three to four years as the lost years. Ivan Zhao (00:00:05): We try many different versions. The first version, okay, everybody can make and create their software, so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that. We tried that a couple of years and learned that actually most people just don't care. Our realization is actually let's hide our vision, which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care. So what kind of tool do people use every day? Productivity software. It took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool. We called it sugar-coated broccoli. People don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar, so it gave them the sugar then hide your broccoli inside of it. Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:40): What other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working? Ivan Zhao (00:00:44): What is the building a product or business. You want user. You want revenue. That's the product business. And building for something you want the world to have is building for your value. You have some taste. You have some aesthetic. There are different energy. You need to create a balance. Too much of yourself. Then there's no users. Then you're just doing our project. And too much for business, you're building a commodity. Lenny Rachitsky (00:01:03): The way you think about Notion, it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool. And so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential. Ivan Zhao (00:01:15): Tools are extensions of us. And once they extend us, once we shape them, once we bring them to world, they can come back to shape us. Lenny Rachitsky (00:01:28): Today, my guest is Ivan Zhao. Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosop...